Jarhead1982 
Member since Feb 27, 2011


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Re: “The Smoking Gun

Ken, your mouth sure walks the walk of an anti gun zealot, you do lie pretty good, but not good enough.

There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent.

http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-co…

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

In the world of mathematics and statistics, something you are apparently ignorant or disdainful of, 8% is never a majority unless you are screwed up on drugs and believe your are Alice in Wonderland where real physics and therefore real mathematics apply.

This assertion that criminals are superior is again a load of ka ka, otherwise, the numbers of deaths and injuries caused by crimes would be astonishing.

As it is, the government acknowledges in USDOJ National Gang Threat Assessment 2009 that 80% of all violent crimes committed in the US each year are committed by career criminals/gang members.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/i…

Suicidal people kinda speak for themselves.

Shall we review police studies in Chicago and NYC where between 76-80% of those involved in shootings, both shooter and injured were both involved in criminal activity at the time of the incident.

www.popcenter.org/problems/drive_by_shooti…, www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public…, www.nyclu.org/files/nypd_firearms_report_1…

So when are you going to address those two groups responsible for over 95% of all deaths using a firearm as frankly it is rather stupid not to address the largest reason for a problem, then again, we are talking about progressives here.

Lets not forget some more government data and studies DOJ Firearms use by offenders, where bad guys documented they fired their weapons 15-18% of the time they used them.

Example, 2008, FBI UCR 1.38 mil violent crimes reported, 381k involved a firearm.

Oh and then we go to the best documented records of people hitting their target under pressure, referencing multiple police firearm discharge reports (google NYC & Virginia Firearm Discharge reports), one sees they only fire their weapons 15% of the time and when shots are fired, hit their targets 15% of the time on average. So wheres your data the criminals are better shots eh? Oh thats right, all you have is BS unsubstantiated belief, lol, ROOKIE!

Dont forget this other government report, USDOJ National Victimization report 2008, it shows in 2008 alone, 4.8 mil violent crimes were not reported. Why is that important, read on ROOKIE!

In 2008, CDC & Hospital databases show 12.252 murders by firearms, 70,000 plus injuires.

So knowing that at best, cops and or criminals, sometimes hard to tell the difference, at best fire their weapons 15% of the time they have them pulled

That means, out of 381,000 violent crimes committed with a firearm, that at worst case, the criminals should have killed and injured at the same rate as the police eh?

381,000 x 15% = times shots fired = 57,150

57,150 x 15% = times shots hit target =8,573 death and injuries.

But wait, government records show 82,252 total deaths and injuries occurred, oh thats right, the government acknowledges over 70% of violent crimes ARE NEVER REPORTED.

So do you have proof that this rate of non reporting changes for only ONE category of reported violent crime einstein? ROTFLMFAO, no, you anti gun zealots never do!

See one must work off the actual number of deaths and injuries to find out the probable number, so lets see you work back off the actual numbers einstein.

82,252 murders and injuries/ 15% x 100 = total # of times shots fired

Total number of times shots fired/15% x 100 = total number of incidents.

Calculate at your own risk, but unfortunately for you, it coincides with the fact the government acknowledges, over 70% of violent crimes are NOT reported, and incidents of self defense where no shots are fired, rarely get reported and you can't prove otherwise.

Lets review the following ACTUAL 10 mass shootings, and note what the body counts were where resistance occurred versus no resistance.

October 16, 1991, Luby’s Cafeteria, Killeen, TX, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 23 murdered, 20 injured.
April 20, 1999, Columbine, “Gun-Free”: 2 gunmen, 13 murdered, 24 injured. Many were murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.
April 16, 2007, Virginia Tech, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 32 murdered, 25 injured. Most were murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.
Feb 14,2008 Northern Illinois University, 1 gunman, 5 dead, 18 injured, gunman kills self long before police arrive to engage.
Nov 5 ,2009 Ft Hood Texas, 1 gunman, 13 dead, 30 wounded. Military personnel on base are BANNED from having a weapon, but the shooter did, and it was almost 9 minutes before police responded

Gun Free Zone 5 incidents

Defenseless victims murdered: 86
Defenseless victims injured: 117

December 17, 1991 Shoney’s Family Restaurant, Anniston, AL: 3 gunmen, 20 hostages, one ARMED customer (Thomas Glenn Terry). Police finally arrived to find one dead robber, one wounded robber and the third had fled when the shooting started. NO INJURED INNOCENTS.
October 1, 1997, Pearl High School: 1 gunman, 2 murdered, 7 injured: Stopped by ARMED vice principal.
January 16, 2002, Virginia Appalachian School of Law: 1 gunman, 3 murdered, 3 injured. Killer was stopped when confronted by two ARMED students.
Dec 9 2007, Colorado Springs, New Life Church, 1 gunman 2 murdered, 3 injured, gunman stopped when armed woman shoots gunman, who then turns gun on self and commits suicide, while 100 other church members are in church.
May 4th, College Station Georgia 2 gunman, 10 victims, 1 dead gunman, 1 victim wounded. The 2 thugs robbing a party begin discussing if they have enough bullets to do the job. One man retrieves his firearm, kills one thug, chases the other off.

Where murderers encountered ARMED resistance 5 incidents

murdered: 7
Where murderers encountered ARMED resistance; injured: 14

Wow, where no resistance occurred 9 plus times higher body count.

Yep, a higher body count is morally superior to a lower body count based on Kens beliefs.

Then to add injury to insult for Kens unsubstantiated beliefs, we see from just four websites of many that collate self defnse incidents...

Keep & Bear Arms
KC3
Armed Citizen
The American Rifleman

.. and we see an average of 80 successful defensive gun uses per month. These are all based on police incident reports, and since the NRA and or 80 mil law abiding gun owners are not in charge of ANY SINGLE POLICE DEPT, so save the bias claims for the village looking for their lost idiot!

SO now that you know where to look for the data, please show everyone how the criminals even when they suprise their intended victim are 100% guaranteed to kill you einstein. Lets see all those instances where the intended victim was disarmed and shot by their own weapon, LOL, it is a lesser percentage than the police and you have no proof to show otherwise.

Heck, even in anti gun nazi land Chicago, we see incidents where the bad guy suprised their intended victim first, yet the bad guy was the one killed. 80 yr old army vet and a 60 something yr old store owner within 10 days of each other in June 2010, shot and killed their attacker who fired first, right during the same week the US Supreme Court ruled on McDonald vs Chicago.

Lets see, 30 to 35 million civilians are former military, uh so how many of those minds and skill sets were wiped completely clean like in the fictional movie Total Recall eh?

No, you have not provided, nor has any anti provided any proof that the criminals are oh so superior experts in anything other than choosing to break the law.

Also, tell ya what, have not seen an acquantance of mine for 20 years, he is probably retired now, but everyone knows him as Chico. See when the Indiana State police put you through their academy, they would send a group of 6 to 7 cadets into a dark room, telling them their was a bad guy they need to aprehend and it was their asssignment to bring him out. In the 12 years I was there in that time, no group of cadets ever pulled Chico out of that room. He was indeed a specialist, and they are few and far between, not the rule.

So until you can prove your inferrence that ALL criminals are specialists and experts with their weapons etc, by disproving all that government data provided, you are nothing more than an emotional biased liar!


Posted by Jarhead1982 on 09/16/2011 at 3:27 AM

Re: “The Smoking Gun

Poor jesse, the UK Government database shows you are ignorant, or a liar, you choose which.

Or you can go to Home Ofiice UK, Their goernment database, and look in their "Crime & Statistics" menu. There you will find their version of the FBI UCR database. There you will find how they went from 820 VCR Violent crimes reported per 100k people in 1997, the first year of their gun ban, to 1,667 vcr per 100k people in 2009. Their murders did not go down either.

So much for less guns equals less crime BS.

You do realize a country 20% of our population as England is, has almost as many reported violent crimes as the US does eh? Look it up, the data is there!

While in the US, our database shows in 1997 a 611 vcr per 100k people has fallen in 2009 to 429 vcr per 100k people. A real reduction in violent crime of 30% and murders reduced 20%.

But hey, in the US that occurred with an increase of 9 mil households owning a gun, increase to 80 mil people owning a gun, 13-16 more states implementing concealed carry, 35 states implementing concealed carry in eateries serving alcohol, 3 states and 71 universities implementing concealed carry.

So much for more guns equal more crime BS.

Just because you dont encounter an issue never, ever means it does not occur.

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Posted by Jarhead1982 on 09/15/2011 at 3:01 AM

Re: “Guns on Campus Bill Advances

Uh BHirsch, pardon my old eyes from calling on you, it was JSR at whom I intended to direct my angst.

Posted by Jarhead1982 on 02/27/2011 at 9:28 PM

Re: “Guns on Campus Bill Advances

A reasonable question Vic, but it has multiple factors, first and foremost is this nagging problem we humans have, freewill.

No matter how much sense it makes, someone is going to believe they know enough or know better, it is human nature, and it applies even to the police, they are human after all.

Now do I believe one should be trained at some level to handle a situation as you noted, yes I do. My training equals or exceeds the average police department in the US in this regard. Funny thing though, even though everyone is screaming about those states that do not require said permitting/training anymore, why are there not significant readily evident bloody results?

Not to mention that 30-35million former military personnel are in the civilian population. Good bet many of those compose a large portion of the 8 million licensed to carry concealed.

Now comes the first variable, what training covers this all effectively?

Every defense class I have ever reviewed and or attended, all stressed the first thing used, is your mind. That is as a rule the legal and tactical aspects of any situation, police or civilian.
The FBI UCR database shows in 2009 right around 411 justifiable homicides by the 700k to 800k police and around 245 by the 80 million law abiding gun owners.

One can argue endlessly how many defensive gun uses occur, but the number in all disputed statistics always seem to lie somewhere in the middle, in this case between 800k to 2.5 mill a year. By the evidence, civilians have less tendency to shoot during an incident.

Actual evidence that all the training is evident and affecting the results? No, just a natural tendency of people only having to shoot when they believe it is absolutely necessary, a very frustrating trend and fact the anti’s just can’t get around. Are there cowboys and morons, yeah. But like all fringe elements, few in number and they tend to weed themselves out, something about the Darwin awards come to mind.

Next variable, actually putting rounds into a target.

People who carry, are the people going to a range on a regular basis including the police and they do practice. Otherwise, there would be many, many collateral damage reports for the anti gun zealots to pounce on, which as a rule, are not common compared to the number of people carrying or the incidents that actually occur.

Qualifications for a concealed licensed vary from 50 to 100 rounds under the supervision of a trained instructor.

Police qualifications are actually not any more stringent, you can pull said qualifications up by doing a google search.

Next variable, how much is enough?

Even the police department with a reputation as shooters, the NYC police dept, the police when they actually have to shoot, only shoot 15% of the time and hit their target on avg 15% of the time. Google up Firearm discharge reports NYC or Virginia State police. This averages out what with the DOJ Felons Firearm Use Survey 1997 notes.

There are other variables to consider, how many situations are in public? How many situations are multi attacker? How many situations are mass shootings?

What is that real risk again?

When a person chooses to be armed, they are accepting the responsibility to be as prepared as they believe necessary. Just like a person buying fire, home, life or health insurance. Is everything perfect in any of those situations, no, never is.

Life and its results are never an absolute, no matter how much certain minorities wish it were.

I will trust to my own choice, abilities and awareness to be my personal insurance, it has indeed saved me and mine several times!

Whatever you choose Vic, take what you learn and choose what is best for you, that truly is all that I ask!

Posted by Jarhead1982 on 02/27/2011 at 7:25 PM

Re: “Guns on Campus Bill Advances

In ending, your facetious claim that a brain drain would occur applies only to those socialistic pariahs who believe that the only learning is what THEY want to program the kids with. Thats not learning, thats not learning to think for themselves, SOMETHING ANY SCHOOL OF HIGHER LEARNING SHOULD ASPIRE TO, TEACHING THE KIDS HOW TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!

So either counter all the facts presented and present your own government facts to support how unsafe people who choose to carry concealed, or shut the heck up as you are getting rather drole and boring with your incessant chicken little the sky is falling with no evidence to support it as frankly, we don't give a tinkers damn what you believe. We care what you can prove, ROTFLMFAO, which to date is nothing. Sucks to be you!

Posted by Jarhead1982 on 02/27/2011 at 9:24 AM

Re: “Guns on Campus Bill Advances

Yet here you are, placing a plea to the 80 million law abiding, when you should be talking to the two groups responsible for more than 95% of the deaths from use of firearms. The career criminals/gang members and the crazies who commit suicide.

The government acknowledges in USDOJ National Gang Threat Assessment 2009 that 80% of all violent crimes committed in the US each year are committed by career criminals/gang members. http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/i…

Suicidal people kinda speak for themselves. CDC Database

Shall we review police studies in Chicago and MYC where between 76-80% of those involved in shootings, both shooter and injured were both involved in criminal activity at the time of the incident. www.popcenter.org/problems/drive_by_shooti…, www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public…, www.nyclu.org/files/nypd_firearms_report_1…

So when are you going to address those two groups responsible for over 95% of all deaths using a firearm as frankly it is rather stupid not to address the largest reason for a problem, then again, we are talking about progressives here.

Haynes vs. U.S. 390 U.S. 85 1968, where the US Supreme Court ruled 8-1 in favor of Haynes that any law requiring a felon to self incriminate themselves and violate their 5th amendment rights was not enforceable as a charge for prosecution. Hence criminals don't have to follow the laws that do so, e.g. your stolen weapons, registrations, etc.... oh covering 85% of current gun control laws that then don't apply to felons.

Amazing how the criminals don't have to obey these laws yet only law-abiding citizens do? This just validates the hypocrisy that laws affect only the felons! After all, 20,000 gun laws and we see how effective a piece of legislation is at stopping violence because if it did, there wouldn't be ANY VIOLENT CRIME.

Of course we see from the USDOJ Background Check & Firearm transfer report 2008 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/html/… Brady Check report that of the 99 million checks for purchases from licensed sources only, since 1994. We see a total of 1.67 million valid rejections, a 68% decrease in felons attempting to buy from a licensed source, and 58% of those rejected being felons. We see that between 2000-2008 only 13,024 were prosecuted, or less than 1%.

By the way, has da gooberment fixed our broken legal system?

We of course see how the anti gun lobby claims such effectiveness of this pathetically useless law with the hard data they can present that the 1.66 million plus who weren’t prosecuted then didn’t go and buy from an unlicensed source?

We also see how the USDOJ survey in 1997 where felons identified purchasing their weapons from 80% street buys, 12% retail stores, 2% gun shows.

Then that 68% reduction of attempted buys from licensed sources puts the street buys at 95.52% in today’s numbers. 12% x .32% (remainder) = 3.84% from retail stores, 2% x .32% = .64% sum total = 4.48%. Oh darn forgot, the BATF and gooberment stooges don't prosecute more than 1% to begin with. So reality is that the government, out of the on average 98,500 not prosecuted people who by law are committing a felony by attempting to buy a firearm, let loose 40,000 plus people who include the crazies you are so frightened of each and every year. So save us your melodramatic ka ka on that whine also!

Firearm Use by Offenders, Bureau of Justice Statistics, November 2001 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbde….

Amazing how ineffective that poster child of futility is and this trend is similar with ALL gun control laws. Yet more laws will prevent criminals, psychos and terrorists from getting a firearm, ROTFLMFAO, uh yeah, right.

Posted by Jarhead1982 on 02/27/2011 at 9:17 AM

Re: “Guns on Campus Bill Advances

Of course there are other countries that have recently tried gun bans, what effect did that have on their violence?

1997 Australia, Canada, England

Australia 1997 629 VCR per 100k 2007 1,024 VCR per 100k, a 32 person reduction in murders by firearms, exactly replaced by murders with knives. Funny how that trend was mirrored in England (ref AIC.GOV)

Canada 1997 980 VCR per 100k people 2009 1,324 VCR per 100k people, murder rose from 560 to 610 (Ref Statcan)

Canada $2 billion dollar plus registry, that hasn’t solved one crime, such a common trend.

England 1997 820 VCR per 100k people 2009 1,667 VCR per 100k people, murders have reduced to 1997 levels after a 25% increase.

So much for less gun equals less violence, a trend found in every single gun ban country, prove otherwise. Oh, use government data to try if you want, the above references ARE their government databases.

Oh and any attempt to say this is irrelevant, sorry, it shows EXACTLY how useless gun control has been ANYWHERE! Or you could just go the FBI UCR database and show everyone the violent crime and murder rates for Chicago from 1982 to today, NYC from 1982 to today, Washington D.C. from 1982 to today, California from 1994 to today, and NJ from 1982 to today and show everyone how all those stringent gun controls and defacto bans except for the elitists have reduced violence and made people safer. See that is how academically intelligent people do a proper comparison, a beginning date to to today.

Lets review the following 9 mass shootings, and note what the body counts were where resistance occurred versus no resistance.

October 16, 1991, Luby’s Cafeteria, Killeen, TX, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 23 murdered, 20 injured.
December 17, 1991 Shoney’s Family Restaurant, Anniston, AL: 3 gunmen, 20 hostages, one ARMED customer (Thomas Glenn Terry). Police finally arrived to find one dead robber, one wounded robber and the third had fled when the shooting started. NO INJURED INNOCENTS.
October 1, 1997, Pearl High School: 1 gunman, 2 murdered, 7 injured: Stopped by ARMED vice principal.
April 20, 1999, Columbine, “Gun-Free”: 2 gunmen, 13 murdered, 24 injured. Many were murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.

January 16, 2002, Virginia Appalachian School of Law: 1 gunman, 3 murdered, 3 injured. Killer was stopped when confronted by two ARMED students.
April 16, 2007, Virginia Tech, “Gun-Free”: 1 gunman, 32 murdered, 25 injured. Most were murdered AFTER the police were “on scene”.

Dec 9 2007, Colorado Springs, New Life Church, 1 gunman 2 murdered, 3 injured, gunman stopped when armed woman shoots gunman, who then turns gun on self and commits suicide, while 100 other church members are in church.
Feb 14,2008 Northern Illinois UNiversity, 1 gunman, 5 dead, 18 injured, gunman kills self long before police arrive to engage.
Nov 5 ,2009 Ft Hood Texas, 1 gunman, 13 dead, 30 wounded. Military personnel on base are BANNED from having a weapon, but the shooter did, and it was almost 9 minutes before police responded

Gun Free Zone 5 incidents

Defenseless victims murdered: 86
Defenseless victims injured: 117

Where murderers encountered ARMED resistance 4 incidents

murdered: 7
Where murderers encountered ARMED resistance; injured: 13

Wow, where no resistance occurred 8 times higher body count.

Yep, a higher body count is morally superior to a lower body count based on BHirsch’s beliefs.

Posted by Jarhead1982 on 02/27/2011 at 9:11 AM

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